And the newest soldier in this fight is Egypt's minister of culture!
Farouq Hosni, the Egyptian minister of culture, has offered
his resignation but refused
Hosni said that the controversy over the hijab and veil was prompted by political motives, stressing that Islam does not impose wearing of the hijab on women. He also said that it was a fashion trend and not a sign of good morals.
The minister told the Egyptian daily, al-Masri
Hosni offered his resignation after the the Muslim
This had led to outrage from the Saudi mufti, who says that Hosni's remarks are a calamity!
Saudi Arabia's top Muslim cleric described the Egyptian culture
"It is a calamity that struck Islamic lands and contradicts the
Ok, first of all, there is nothing in the Koran on their kind of Hijab, so the saudi mufti is full of shit. The Hijab that is talking about is not a religious, but a tribal, dress and isn't mendatory for muslim women. For the Mufti to say that is an outright lie. The Koran says women should dress modestly, but didn;t specify headcovering or any of that other crap. I am glad that somebody in power in this country finally had the balls to say it. It's 5 years too late, but oh well, I will take it!
56 Responses to “The veil war continues”
Everytime the word veil is mentioned i feel like we
are going through sanctum sanctorum that we can never talk about.Because simply
people don’t like reasoning because it will win and people don’t want it so as
woman oppression goes on and the retareded picture of Islam be more clear,as if
the only reason why Islam came is to cover women!!
so what you’re trying to say here is that you’re brilliant enough to figure out that hijad is not a must and its a sign of retardation?!!!! based on what you’re saying this while you don’t know shit about ur religion? plz leave the religious talk aside and stop attacking women for choosing to get veiled cuz its a personal choice that harms nobody
Ooshi Says:”so what you’re trying to say here is that you’re brilliant enough to figure out that hijad is not a must and its a sign of retardation?!!!!”
Well I don’t speak for anyone else here, but perhaps the obsession with the hijab is, well, a little odd. I mean, rank these issues in order of priority:
1. slavery in Mauretania
2. genocide in Dafur
3. drug abuse and crime among young Muslim men
4. unemployment in the Middle East
5. Global Warming
The Muslims of the world seem to think the last one is more important than all the others put together. And then some. When was the last time you heard anyone complaining about young Muslim men not dressing properly or drinking? To be so obsessed with what women wear is, frankly, retarded.
Ooshi Says:”plz leave the religious talk aside and stop attacking women for choosing to get veiled cuz its a personal choice that harms nobody”
I don’t think he was attacking women for choosing to be veiled but Muslims for being so obsessed with the issue. But it is not a personal choice - men force it on some women at least - and it does harm people - especially those young women who do not wear it but are forced to by their Brothers or by being constantly assaulted on the streets.
Pharoah, the only thing retarded here is your comment!! DoucheBag
Ooshi, do all Muslim women wear a hijab, or even more extreme head coverings, by choice? Let us examine Saudi-Arabia and Iran, where such matters are law. Move on to Egypt, where it is a matter of society’s pressure, and end with downtown London, where it may very well be “wear it -or get beaten up” as far as the father/husband is concerned.
Choice… Such a fickle thing. And in this case, the lack of it is far too apparent. Wearing it by choice is one thing, and the lack of it quite another.
On the HIJAB ISSUe
Pardon my feeble-mindedness, I’ve pinned my scarf on too tight and squeezed reason out of my brain….just WHO is running away from the truth? I have chosen to set myself apart from millions of Canadians, placed myself in the way of ridicule by a society that demands women to conform to certain ideals, I have refused to hide in the crowded university hallways and malls by looking the way Cindy, Cosmo, or Calvin Klein think I should - all because I’m a spineless caged rodent?!?! I have rejected the hip-hugging jeans, the breast-enhancing halter tops, the poofy hair and made-up face, and accepted hijab so that I can be appreciated for my intellect and personality rather than my figure or fashion sense. When I face a classmate or colleague I can be confident that my body is not being scrutinized, my bra-strap or pantyline visible. I have repudiated the perverted values of our society by choosing to assert myself only through my mind.
I understand my “natural habitat” ! very well thank you. I fully comprehend the distorted image of the “ideal woman,” but the difference between me and the Catherine Meckes’s of the world is that I am NOT afraid to defy those standards. Islam liberated me from THAT prison.
Perhaps hijab is so misunderstood because it is prescribed by a religion that makes a bold and shocking statement: Women are precious creatures who have the right to be valued for who they are, and not what they can juggle.”
“Is it a wonder that neck lines keep plunging every year?- more cleavage means women won’t bore oglers, the commercial industries, and the rest of society for awhile. But when will those skirts quit shortening?? For how long will women remain sex objects?? Islam tells us that every woman is a jewel and when she respects herself enough to preserve her beauty for herself and her loved ones, she rejects being objectified by a society which does NOT value her.
Only the dearest people in my life know me without hijab because they love me enough to value ALL of me. John and Jane Doe don’t love me or care for me, so why must I meet their notions of an “ideal woman” if they are meaningless to me? It is the desire to please popular culture that makes 15 year old girls want to fit into Kate Moss’s jeans by sticking their fingers down their throats and wretching (throwing up) three times a day. It is the unattainable Perfect-Body society has conjured, that make “fat”, “ugly” girls splatter themselves on sidewalks because they just are “not thin and pretty enough”.
AND THEY TELL ME ISLAM OPPRESSES WOMEN??
I am thankful that I am not suicidal or
psychologically unbalanced because I can’t meet the demands of my culture. I am
fortunate that my concerns and goals in life lie on a higher plane than the
dictates of a pretty fashion industry. I am quite content with my religion, for
it values my power to achieve great things through my mind, not through my body.
Whether I am physically beautiful or not, you have no clue. Perhaps this fact is
disturbing for Catherine Meckes and the library stranger because they are not
ready to meet a woman who can get by without her looks. Then again, perhaps it
is because they are just ignorant of the (WHAT IS IT?) facts. Either way, I
don’t need anyone’s sympathy, I am not really that scary, and your anger does me
no harm. I am not under duress, or a male-worshipping female captive from the
barbarous Arabian deserts.
OK. Since some women are “forced” to wear this thingie, and it DIVIDEs these women from the rest of the world, it really needs to go. Like do these gals have to wear chastity belts under all those robes too? Is this some secret no one’s talking about? Also, the “restore my virginity” clinics so popular in Muslim communities. Give yourselves and the world a break!!! This stuff is midieval and ya’ll are having super anxiety problems because you know it’s backwards and just plain wrong in the 21st century! TEAR OFF THAT VEIL !!!! And beat the heck out of guys who force your sisters to wear those masks! What if all of us American chics decided to wear hockey masks (see Silence of the Lambs for reference) in public? All the time? Our guys would be begging us to please take the dang things off. If we didn’t, they’d all go gay and start doing weird things to animals. So we DON’T do these silly things as our home boys, and the rest of the boys on the planet, would suffer.
I agree with Naomi,it’s just absurd that only Muslim women are the only people to wear these things.it’s all about women suppression which have to stop,the female is a human not only a body and hair,how come a woman be covered in a society where there are no veiled women claiming that so as nobody would look at her!!she’d be exotic and everyone would look at her more.please,grow up
Quit pretending you are wearing that hijab for religious reasons. It is a political statement, and a very loud bid for attention. If you really wanted privacy, you’d wear a loose, long T-shirt and jeans. Then nobody would look at you.
“If you really wanted privacy, you’d wear a loose,
long T-shirt and jeans. Then nobody would look at you. ”
“I agree with Naomi, it’s just absurd that only
Muslim women are the only people to wear these things”
My wife is of Chinese origin but nobody will force
her to bind up her feet nowadays. Even when that has been a custom in China for
Well ur blog is very Anti-Islam, as I’ve seen so far. Hm ok, frist of all people should wear anything they want, and follow whatever they believe in, as long as they are not hurting others. If a non muslim chooses to wear hijab for style, u would’ve said nothing, maybe even praise him. U might call it normal for a person to be proud that he is gay, but just because a Muslim person decided to wear something he believes God ordered her to do, she is regressive, and retarded, talk about double standards.
Forcing anything is worg we all agree on that, “Man sha2 menkom fal yo2men, Wa man sha2 fal yakfor”, so don’t bring the “Forcing” issue is it is part of the hijab, our own stupid culture has nothing to do with Islam!
I didn’t see some1 saying “Hey, those jews wear small black hats, and elongate thier beards, thats retarded!”, or “Hey those nuns wear robes, and cover thier heads!, thats retarded”, but you kept attacking only muslim women for covering thier hair! every1 is free to do what he want, don’t speak out of blind hate.
Now u say quran didn’t order hijab,so now you are a “Mofaser” and a “Mofty” we 7`abeer qur2any?, already tafseers have provided the proper meaning for the ayah/ayat speaking about hijab, so don’t post naive comments like “No quran didn’t say so”
As for Pharaoh, ur frist comment appears as if u want to provide a good image for islam, yet link to a site that posts fairy tales, and tells people to leave islam and join christianity. Thats pathetic really! Again personal belief in what religion, and what they follow is non of your business, just because u hate these group of people or you want to see them following another religion, don’t act all “Ooooh, this will ruin the islamic image”, “Oooh the word hijab gives me nightmares”, nuns cover thier hair, some christians in lebanon and rome cover thier hair, some non muslims in turkey cover thier hair, ur only speaking of what appears to be your own personal hate.
One last thing, if it matters or not, as u can see I am all Pro-Hijab, and I would like to say that my sister wore a hijab, and then took it off (but for non hate/cheesy sci fi reasons u believe in), I never treated her differently, or forced her into wearing it, nor did my family. The forcing issue has nothing to do with religion, its about concepts, and mentality. In Egypt people get forced to do alooooot of things, many of them non religion related! as I said its a mental problem, not a religious one, after all islam is all about choice.
I think the original post is much more interesting than the beaten up hijab-discussion. But I´ll help you guys out - this is what Sandmonkey wrote :
“Ok, first of all, there is nothing in the Koran on their kind of Hijab, so the saudi mufti is full of shit. The Hijab that is talking about is not a religious, but a tribal, dress and isn’t mendatory for muslim women. For the Mufti to say that is an outright lie. The Koran says women should dress modestly, but didn;t specify headcovering or any of that other crap. I am glad that somebody in power in this country finally had the balls to say it. It’s 5 years too late, but oh well, I will take it! ”
His point is obviously that, religiously speaking, the cultural minister did nothing wrong. He does not insult Islam. He just states that it is a fashion trend, and not a sign on good morals.
Just because lots of muslim women choose to wear hijab out of their free will, it doesn´t mean it´s a sign on good morals, right? And it clearly does not proves that it is not a fashion…
So wat really, is insulting about the ministers comments?
What is insulting to me as a man, though, is a lot of the arguments muslim women use to explain why they wear hijab. But that´s another discussion…
Because Allah gave us free will.. He knows that
there are those who will abuse it.. Fact of reality.. I personally experienced
sexual harrassments before the veil.. Its amazing how it all disappeared after
hijab. The verses specifically refer to that….”O Prophet! Tell your wives and
your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all
over their bodies.That will be better, that they should be known (as free
respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever OftForgiving, Most
I am totally against the idea that a Muslim woman
should not have the same opportunities as a Muslim man to learn, to open up, to
work, help shape the future. To close Islam down to a sexist approach is totally
intolerable and ridiculous. It’s not Islam.
Mohammed (PBUH) said women should dress modestly. Only that. No more. The hadith is that his wife was the first Moslem.
If the hajib is the dress of choice, let it be. If it is the dress of oppression, fight it.
I agree with ” let it be”
“Mohammed (PBUH) said women should dress modestly. Only that. No more.”
“No more”?, again specific Ahadeeth has been said about “3ekab” for those who don’t cover thier hair, like it like other “Forood” like prayer and such. Not to mention that it was mentioned in the quran (again), so that “No more” part is very wrong, other than that I agree with the rest.
Mohammed, about the hadiths which you mention to justify covering hair, I’d like to point out to you that from the academic studies on the authenticity of even the “strongest” hadiths, it is reasonable to believe that hadiths cannot be trusted and were not M’s (PBUH) exact words. So for us Muslims who believe that to be the case, we feel that the veil requirement is a fabrication.
In the end however, I respect women who need to veil for whatever reason (fear of burning in hell, comfort in public, obedience to family, liberation from worldly superficialities etc…). But in the same token, one has the right to say that the hijab is bullshit because Islam doesn’t actually require it. One can also express his opnion that it is regressive and so on. Finally, for your full dose of hijab, check out www.HijabHeaven.co.uk
“Mohammed, about the hadiths which you mention to justify covering hair, I’d like to point out to you that from the academic studies on the authenticity of even the “strongest” hadiths, it is reasonable to believe that hadiths cannot be trusted and were not M’s (PBUH) exact words. So for us Muslims who believe that to be the case, we feel that the veil requirement is a fabrication.”
Well the word “7`emar” which was mentioned in quran “Wal yadrebn be 7`emarehon”, in several tafseers and Mo3gm, is something that covers the hair. In all tafseers it is translated that way. So there you go.
As for Sunnah, The 7adeeth is in “Muslim” 3an ‘Abe Hurayra’ (which is the one mentioning the punishment). Now the other Hadith is the one that is debateable, the one referring to the the exception of the hand and the face, and I will like u to know that ‘Al Albany’ (7asanaho)
One last thing is that all 4 Mazaheb, and Mofasereen agreed on the same ‘7okm’ about covering the hair.
And ofcourse people can express thier opinion, but not in an insulting way, and especialy not on a sensitive issue such as religion, not to mention that person is a Minister.
noosh… I applaude your posts…
Usual suspect.. take it easy, I dont think noosh menat any insults to girls who dont wear hijab. My youngest sis didnt wear her hijab till now, while my elder sister wore it since she was 14. Its a matter of beleife before it becoming a matter of choice.
Can someone point out in Quraan or Sunna a direct
order to cover hair? The only I know is in the Quraan is to dress decently : “O
Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw
their cloaks round them (when they go outisde). That will be better, so that
they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful. ”
Yeah, I can´t help that I find it insulting when a woman says she has to wear Hijab to “escape from me seeing here only as a mere sex-object.” I hear that all the time, and it pisses me off.
I also don´t understand why wearing a Hijab is mandatory in the first place. Since Allah gave you free will, shouldn´t you be allowed to choose not to wear it withouth recieving some kind of punishment?
It must be from that logic some imams call for the punishment on women who is raped. Since they “tempt” men with their apperance they should be punished like those who don´t wear Hijab. (Because, clearly, the reason why Hijab is mandatory is to save men from being tempted.)
I agree with The Usual Suspect. You are offensive. Lots of us don’t wear hijab and have never been mistaken for prostitutes, thank you very much.
As if girls in hijab don’t take care of themselves and don’t diet or worry about their weight. What crap!
“…calling his remarks insults that were directed at Islam’s religious leaders.”
By this logic, anything that doesn’t suit the tastes of these eligious leaders could be conceived as an insult to them. Might as well drop any pretense of democracy…!
The whole veil-discussion is indeed a dead horse, as Per Andrea mentions, but I just can’t help replying to the commenters defending the practice of wearing a hijab.
Free will is inherent in humans - nobody can take away the choice to do what you want. What they CAN do is impose such punishment on you that free will becomes an academic discussion only…! Most likely, some muslim women, mostly in western countries I’d wager, are indeed wearing a veil of their own accord (whether this is subconciously to appease their muslim community or not) and as such I have no problem with them dressing however they want. The problem lies in the fact that they are helping to keep up a culture that sees women as being inferior to men.
Not only that, but in the west they are deliberately keeping up a barriere between themselves and the rest of society - societies that are built on the premise that everyone can communicate with each other and fill the same social roles - effectively hampering any attempt at integration and futhering ghettofication.
Veils and such has indeed been part of christianity and judaism in the past, but has long since been dealt with in all but the most conservative parts of western societies - Islam is badly in need of a modernisation to bring it up to date with the surrounding world!
20. Mohammed said:
“And ofcourse people can express thier opinion, but not in an insulting way, and especialy not on a sensitive issue such as religion, not to mention that person is a Minister.”
No, there is no such restrictions on free speech. I can certainly insult you to my chearts content if I want to. I can ridicule your religion however I want. Likewise, you can do the same in return. What we cannot do is slander someone on an untrue basis or go as far as to threaten someone with harm in one form or another. Free speech in a nutshell, something that is exasperatingly difficult to explain to most muslim people…!
“It must be from that logic some imams call for the punishment on women who is raped. Since they “tempt” men with their apperance they should be punished like those who don´t wear Hijab. (Because, clearly, the reason why Hijab is mandatory is to save men from being tempted.) ”
No, that’s a result of an even more astonishing instance of retardation.
There is a Shariah rule that people can only be punished for fornication or adultery if they confess or if 4 reliable witnesses see the actual act of intercourse. If 3 witnesses come forward and 4th one fails to show, the 3 witnesses will be punished for “slander” and their testimony will never be accepted. In Islamic tradition, people were encouraged not to report these incidents. It was considered more pious not to expose people for crimes of this nature.
However, rape is not fornication or adultery. Some idiots who call themselves Imams have decided that if an unmarried woman gets pregnant and claims she was raped by someone, well we know she committed adultery or fornication because she’s pregnant but we don’t have a confession or 4 witnesses that he raped her so how do we know it was rape?How do we know the man she mentioned was involved at all?
And so they arrived at the brilliant conclusion that since they only have physical evidence against her let’s punish her for having had sex regardless of whether she was willing or not.
Clearly the concepts of forensics and DNA have never been introduced to these people. Give them a couple more centuries. They’ll catch up.
“I also don´t understand why wearing a Hijab is
mandatory in the first place.”
Now God gave us free will to choose what and what not to do, the “Punishment” is not in life nor is it a law, it is in the after life, which is something in all religions as well. God’s commands and guidance is there, its up to people wether to belive, follow, and do. U shouldn’t say something like “Clearly Hijab is mandatory for ….” how would u know? pray is mandatory for.. ? Hijab is an order of God, thats it. You may try to find the values behind, but the main value in any of God’s order or guidance is choosing to follow God, when you ask a woman why do u wear hijab? thats because she is following God’s order. Just like following anyorder, fasting is benificial to the body, and is very healthy, but thats not the main value, fasting is an order from God, and thus we follow it, because we believe God’s orders are for our best.
Again in your last paragraph your speaking as if the punishment was jail or such, its only in the after life, like those who doesn’t pray or fast , …etc So the difference between a woman who wears hijab and a woman who doesn’t is the difference between some1 who chooses to pray and the some1 who doesn’t, its called “Tark Al Fareeda” which means skipping/no following an order. Thats all, no different in treating or anything, if they tempt man by wearing whatever they want, then man shouldn’t look (3`ad el basar) which is also mandatory in islam.
I’d like to tell u that women who wear hijab were also harrassed at that incidence, that mass rape thing has nothing to do with religion, and contained groups of both muslims and christians, as they said those people follow non-of the religion, islam tells us not to even look sexualy at women (sexualization), it prohibtes touching (unless handshakes), and strictly strictly forbids pre-martial sex, not to mention heping others rather than hurting them. So you logic is flawed by co-joining the hijab order with what happened in egypt recently.
@ The Usual Suspect, as I said just few lines ago, no choosing to wear a hijab, is choosing to miss an order, and thats it! we do not judge character on it, or anything, like some1 who doesn’t yet pray all the prayers, ..etc
@Adam: “Islam is badly in need of a modernisation
to bring it up to date with the surrounding world!”
About free speach, you are wrong, there are resrictions on free speach, if following the same concept you are endorsing racism, when ministers of government officials (wordwide) makes any racistic or insulting comment, he appologizes, and if racism was the case I think they will remove him. But what appears that the word “Freedom Of Speech” are always tagged when insulting muslism, when about jewish protests against any anti semitic comment and such.
And now I’d like to tell u something, free speach is either applied or not, in Egypt IT IS NOT, so you won’t it to apply only when insulting muslims? Just recently a movie like “The Da Vinci Code” was banned in egypt, alongside the book, and in several other arabic countries, because it christians said they are offensive (I totaly agree with that), thats the situation in Egypt, but when islam gets insulted every1 screams “Free Speach/Freedom/Opinion”.
“something that is exasperatingly difficult to
explain to most muslim people…!”
Now as for the western women who wore hijab for other purposes other than it is a religious order, well they can wear it for whatever reason or concept they believe, you choosing to support that concept is your personal choice, but the main reason for hijab, is God’s order, you are like saying I pray because its a good muscle exercise (lol) yeah okay do what you want, but prayer in heart and core, is an order from God, just like the hijab. As for saying it is not an order, we talked about that earlier, and how all 4 mazaheb agreed, and you can look in multiple islamic sites, and ask scholars if you like.
Being an atheist, I wholehearted agree with you here - religion is a sham, proven by the fact that allmighty God has somehow never been able to predict the future and take appropriate measures when formulating his ‘laws’. When I talk of a modernisation, I am only referring to the cultural side of religion, since of course, any change in the religion itself is by default impossible…
Free speech - no other restrictions than those I mentioned. You cannot treat people differently based on the race or religion, you cannot slander them and you cannot threaten with harm. Freedom of speech ‘is tagged when insulting muslims’ because muslims are the only ones who, on a broad scale, don’t understand the basics of free speech.
Free speech may not be applied in Egypt - so much the worse for the egyptians - but this restriction doesn’t carry across borders, another thing that muslims find hard to understand. For instance, in Denmark it isn’t illegal to question the Holocaust; in Germany it is. This doesn’t mean that Germany can demand punishment for someone denying the Holocaust while on danish soil… Depending on their laws, they may be able to arrest said person if he/she enters Germany afterwards, but that’s a different matter…
Rasicm? Now THERE is an overused word if ever there was one…! Please keep such silly accusations out of the picture - they do little good. I generalize when it is appropriate - like it or not.
As for the hijab, I have no idea about what demands the Quran makes in this regard. As I mentioned, I’m an atheist, and to me the hijab is a symbol of oppression which does more than anything else to keep muslim immigrants from becoming a functioning part of the western societies they live in. Ghettofication is the result.
Well christians and jews, do change the religion ITSELF, add and ommit from thier holy books. And by saying on the cultural side that means the orders are in the Quran, and we don’t follow them because we think they are inapropirate and such. This contradicts with the very basics of belief!, God is the perfect entity, it is not possible that he commands something that later on will be “wrong/flawed/illogical/inhumane”. If some1 believes that the command is not appropriate I don’t see why he belives in God in the frist place, if God is flawed that means there is no God.
We understand free speach, it is just no applied (I am not saying I am with that), but the minister is an egyptian minister (he is not from another country), I don’t see how the holocaust example applies here, egypt doesn’t apply free speach, why should it be applied only when islam gets insulted?
About racism, u said we don’t undertand free speach, just because we are being muslims, that appears pretty racistic to me, and I think you know that alot of muslims live in 1st world countries which endorses freedom of speach.
About the free speach restrictions, well the example I said b4, applies in all the world, anti-semitic claims applies also all over the world, thats why some material gets banned from certain channels for example and such.
Well the Hijab is a command in both Quran and Sunnah, u can look at the wikipedia link above, or simply google it. You see it as a sign of opression well thats your opinion, in appearance its a piece of cloth that covers the hair, I don’t see how that is oppression, unless ur refering to the value it holds. I don’t see how a head cover can “Prevent muslims from becoming a functioning part”, descrimination is the one that does that, a piece of cloth doesn’t take part of your brain, and it certinaly doesn’t shoot missles at people. Being a functional of succesful part of a community resides in the person’s cababilites, has nothing to do with what cloth they are wearing.
Mohammed Says:”Well christians and jews, do change the religion ITSELF, add and ommit from thier holy books.”
Sorry but what have the Jews and Christians *EVER* added or omitted from their holy books? You know this sort of religious vilification and hatred is sad. Have you thought of getting medical help?
Mohammed Says:”God is the perfect entity, it is not possible that he commands something that later on will be “wrong/flawed/illogical/inhumane”. If some1 believes that the command is not appropriate I don’t see why he belives in God in the frist place, if God is flawed that means there is no God.”
Why is it not possible? Surely it is entirely possible as all things are possible to God. He may not choose to do so, but surely He can if He wants?
I understand that you probably are not allowed to
question these rules - since they are the command of God. (Correct me if I´m
That tells me that one of the reasons why hijab is mandatory, is that it will hel p the users to appear as “free respectable women so as not to be annoyed.” And it doesn´t make sense to me that the women should be punished (in afterlife, for that sake - but we know that a lot of women is punished in this life too), for breaking this rule - when the intention of it is to protect her from being annoyed in the first place.
But it is probably not ment to make sense anyway, since it is the word of god and cannot be questioned.
noosh Says:”I have chosen to set myself apart from millions of Canadians, placed myself in the way of ridicule by a society that demands women to conform to certain ideals, I have refused to hide in the crowded university hallways and malls by looking the way Cindy, Cosmo, or Calvin Klein think I should - all because I’m a spineless caged rodent?!?!”
Notice the leap you make there. This is called the fallacy of the excluded middle. OK. You have chosen to set yourself apart from other Canadians. Good for you. You are simply giving in to a culture that demands women conform to certain *other* ideals, but if you’re happy being a faceless black tent, I am happy to defend your right to do so. But. And this is the key point. Just because you don’t want to look the way that Cosmo says you should, doesn’t mean your only choice is the niqaab. There is a wealth of options between a bare midrif and miniskirts and the niqaab. Did you think you might perhaps like to explore those options before you chose the hijab?
noosh Says:”I have rejected the hip-hugging jeans, the breast-enhancing halter tops, the poofy hair and made-up face, and accepted hijab so that I can be appreciated for my intellect and personality rather than my figure or fashion sense.”
Good for you. I fully and totally support anyone who rejects hip-hugging jeans etc etc etc. But what makes you think hijab means you are now appreciated for your intellect and personality? After all, the West not only has people like your fellow Canadian Pamela Anderson (whose personality impresses me to be honest but not always in a good way) but also people like Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Sandra Day O’Connor. If you did not know, they both were appointed to the US Supreme Court and while SDO might have got there, at least in part, with the help of her looks (although I doubt it) I assure you that RBG did not. She got there on her intellect and personality. So if the hijab makes Muslim men appreciate your intellect, the Muslim world must have dozens, hundreds, even thousands, of women like RBG holding important positions in society. Does it? Can you name anyone like her in the Muslim world? It is true that there have been Muslima Presidents and Prime Ministers but usually only if their Father or Husband were important first. In fact all the female rulers of the Muslim world put together, ever, probably amount to a shorter period of time than Queen Elizabeth II has been on the throne. So can you tell me why putting on the hijab is such a career killer if, after all, it means you are appreciated for your intellect?
noosh Says:”I have repudiated the perverted values of our society by choosing to assert myself only through my mind.”
What makes you think that? Surely you are asserting yourself very clearly by wearing the hijab and your mind is not what you are asserting. What you are saying is you reject the values of Canadian society. Again can you tell me how many hijab-wearing Nobel-Prize-winning women there have been?
noosh Says:”Perhaps hijab is so misunderstood because it is prescribed by a religion that makes a bold and shocking statement: Women are precious creatures who have the right to be valued for who they are, and not what they can juggle.””
What makes you think Islam does that? Explain to me where is the evidence from the Muslim world that this is the case. Would you agree that what the hijab seems to be telling Muslim men is that women are unfit to appear in public or take any part in public affairs?
noosh Says:”Islam tells us that every woman is a jewel and when she respects herself enough to preserve her beauty for herself and her loved ones, she rejects being objectified by a society which does NOT value her.”
Where does Islam say that? Surely what you mean is that Western-based Muslim apologists make that claim. Preserve her beauty for herself and her husband you mean.
noosh Says:”John and Jane Doe don’t love me or care for me, so why must I meet their notions of an “ideal woman” if they are meaningless to me?”
Again, that excluded middle. Perhaps you might find a happy middle ground between being their ideal woman and being a dark shapeless mass without a voice?
noosh Says:”It is the desire to please popular culture that makes 15 year old girls want to fit into Kate Moss’s jeans by sticking their fingers down their throats and wretching (throwing up) three times a day. It is the unattainable Perfect-Body society has conjured, that make “fat”, “ugly” girls splatter themselves on sidewalks because they just are “not thin and pretty enough”.”
In the same way it is popular Muslim culture in some places that make brides set themselves on fire. You would be offended if we judged Islam by those brides’ lives, why are you judging the West by these examples?
noosh Says:”AND THEY TELL ME ISLAM OPPRESSES WOMEN??”
Yes, we tell you Islam oppresses women.
noosh Says:”I am thankful that I am not suicidal or psychologically unbalanced because I can’t meet the demands of my culture.”
Well it is brides that are at most risk in many Muslim countries and so you are in the wrong age cohort for that I guess. But you have to admit that some of those cultural demands are a little more extreme - Canadian girls rarely suffer FGM for instance. You really think that Canadian kafir girls are more metally disturned and suicidal than Muslimas?
noosh Says:”I am quite content with my religion, for it values my power to achieve great things through my mind, not through my body. Whether I am physically beautiful or not, you have no clue.”
How does it value your power to achieve great things - especially given that Muslimas have not, historically, achieved much at all? Which Muslima had a career like Khadija? Why is it that Muslimas only manage to achieve much at all with their minds if they live in the West? I do have no clue I agree. But then if you wore hijab properly - not just the hijab of cloth, but taking care that I never heard your voice or the clicking of your heels - I would not know if you were smart either. You would exist in a void as far as I was concerned.
noosh Says:”Either way, I don’t need anyone’s
sympathy, I am not really that scary, and your anger does me no harm. I am not
under duress, or a male-worshipping female captive from the barbarous Arabian
Well you are that scary in the same way that girls who cut themselves are scary. But I am not offering you sympathy. If you have found something that makes you happy, I am happy for you. However it is interesting that Muslimas often end up taking the veil and Christian girls, Buddhists girls, Jewish girls, do not. That suggests that you are heavily influenced by someone. How have you been liberated? Liberated from thought? From decisions you would rather not face or make?
Miss usual suspect.. funny how you can find the ‘quotes’ from the article I posted attacking YOU. You’re obviously overtly sensitive and preconditioned to see anything defending the Hijab as attacking you.. The quotes I posted are responding to those who find the Hijab “oppressive” and retarded and not an attack on all non-veiled women.
The point here everyone is that Farouq husni should
not incite anger in the muslim community by expressing his useless views. I’m
sure if he did his job with as much effort as drawing one of his childish
paintings we will see a better Egypt. I personally find his comments no insult
to me coz I do not repect him and thus reject all his views as a whole. He’s
nothing but another case of “Western-itis” in which the inflammed mind is
incapable of selecting the good from the bad of the ideas that shape the western
society. Unfotunetly this disease is spreading faster than plague and seems to
have a preference for the so called ‘elite’ of the egyptian society.
#36 “He’s nothing but another case of “Western-itis” in which the inflammed mind is incapable of selecting the good from the bad of the ideas that shape the western society.”
And should I compare that to things like the moronic tyraiding mobs who think violence and arson are the best ways to communicate their displseaure of a Danish cartoon?
noosh Says:”The point here everyone is that Farouq
husni should not incite anger in the muslim community by expressing his useless
views. I’m sure if he did his job with as much effort as drawing one of his
childish paintings we will see a better Egypt. I personally find his comments no
insult to me coz I do not repect him and thus reject all his views as a whole.
He’s nothing but another case of “Western-itis” in which the inflammed mind is
incapable of selecting the good from the bad of the ideas that shape the western
society. Unfotunetly this disease is spreading faster than plague and seems to
have a preference for the so called ‘elite’ of the egyptian society.
Actually if he incited anger in the Muslim community I would suggest, with all due respect, the problem is with the Muslim community and they need to get their heads out of, well, a place God did not intend them to go and grow up. Why should every other person on the planet put up with this intimidation and childish tantrum throwing?
You are welcome to think whatever you like about the man, but your comments about his lack of judgement are amusing given you have just told us there is no alternative to dressing like a whore but the niqaab. Don’t you think you also have been a little bit incapable of selecting the good from the bad in Western culture?
Noosh; it may not have been the intention of your comment to brand women who don’t wear the hijab as “prostitutes”, but that’s what comes across to other readers.
Mohammed; The notion that christians and jews have added and omitted from their holy books is a specific muslim belief. Christians and jews do not believe this and to suggest it will by many be taken as a direct insult to their faith.
Per Andrea said:
“However, it is still interesting for me to look
into why these rules are imposed - what function they serve. Do you seriously
never ask yourself why you do the things you do? From your (and others) examples
from the quran, it seems like the words of God does indeed gives som reasons. It
does not simply say “cover yourself up”, but rather:
Which leads us to the ‘paradox’ that some muslim women in the west wear a hijab in order to, as the quran says, “not be annoyed”, even though the reaction in the west is often the opposite.
Let me postulate for a minute that the need for this covering up was to not arouse unwanted interest, probably due to raids by neighbouring tribes in the desert of the arab peninsula… Wearing such garments in a modern world where, supposedly, no women are going to be victims of a raid and subsequent abduction, is thus counterproductive to the original intent - they simply create interest instead of hindering it!
Face it - what was true 1400 (or 2000) years ago is probably not true today!
HeiGou Says: “Sorry but what have the Jews and Christians *EVER* added or omitted from their holy books? You know this sort of religious vilification and hatred is sad. Have you thought of getting medical help?”
Frist of all hello, secondly the bible have been edited and tampered with since long ago (altho this is not the issue here), you can find a quite large number of bibles, with different versions and editions, and u will find HUGE differences between them. Not to mention that christian scholars forms meetings to change certain verses. And the same exact thing is done in judaism. I don’t see a hatred here, only hatred I see is u telling me to get medical help, which I won’t respond to.
HeiGou Says: “Why is it not possible? Surely it is
entirely possible as all things are possible to God. He may not choose to do so,
but surely He can if He wants?”
Per Andreas: I understand that you probably are not
allowed to question these rules - since they are the command of God. (Correct me
if I´m wrong.)
Questioning a command, is different than finding the value behind it, questioning means you question if they are right or wrong, should or shouldn’t be applied, which would contradict with that God wouldn’t descend something unless it is perfect and for the better.
U might find values, like u said for example to be known as free women, this is one of the values, and that was at the time of Muhammad and quran, due to the dressing manners of slaves and non slaves. However at a time like now, another values arrise, like not exciting possible rapists, not to appear as a sexual object (only examples, I am not saying thats the only way, or thats the way). My point is, these values are secondary, the main point is your choice wether to follow one God ordered you to do or not (same for prayer, fasting, haj, …etc), thats the whole point not only from hijab but all “Aebadat”, your choice to do because God wanted so.
“That tells me that one of the reasons why hijab is mandatory, is that it will hel p the users to appear as “free respectable women so as not to be annoyed.” And it doesn´t make sense to me that the women should be punished (in afterlife, for that sake - but we know that a lot of women is punished in this life too), for breaking this rule - when the intention of it is to protect her from being annoyed in the first place.
But it is probably not ment to make sense anyway, since it is the word of god and cannot be questioned. ”
Nothing doesn’t make sense. Fristly your deciding Hijab based on one Ayah, not minding the other, or the Sunnah. Now the other Ayah (I only know it in arabic) it tells muslimas the way to wear a hijab (Khemar), and starting with “KOL” which means it is an order. And all mofasereen and mazaheb stated that it is infact an order. So according to our “Sharee’a” it is infact an order. So please don’t try and decide what hijab is for based one verse. As for women punished in this life, that has nothing to do with the religion this problem.
“Face it - what was true 1400 (or 2000) years ago
is probably not true today!”
@K “The notion that christians and jews have added
and omitted from their holy books is a specific muslim belief. Christians and
jews do not believe this and to suggest it will by many be taken as a direct
insult to their faith.”
Let’s magine for a second that veil didnt exist in
Islam or any religion religion?would the man respect the woman then even if she
didn’t cover her hair?It’s all about progress and freeing mind like people of
other religions did.when they understood that the female is a human being and
not a thing that man can have or harrass because she doesnt wear a scarf on her
head,and as veil exists in other religion as you said,why only muslims are just
dick heads about it and consider the woman who doesn’t put it a sinner!!!Because
it’s a god order?shall i take orders without even reasoning it a little bit?If
it is so,then i do deserve to put a scarf on my head as i don’t use it!!
Well, I said one of the reasons.
But anyway, I guess I am too biased to really contribute to this discussion. As a non-religious person I will never blindly follow rules or obligations that does not benefit for the good - either to me or mankind. I am not saying that it makes me a better person or anything.
So yeah, all you religious guys are welcome to laugh your asses of with those ten heavenly virgins by your side while I burn in hell:-)
With all due respect.. you have presented before me a large number of misconceptions that I find it hard to address them all.. maybe you can leave your email and I will try to respond to them when I have more time.. But I find the Hijab you are referring to a very strange hijab.. It is not the hijab I or most muslim women follow.
“but if you’re happy being a faceless black tent, I am happy to defend your right to do so. But. And this is the key point. Just because you don’t want to look the way that Cosmo says you should, doesn’t mean your only choice is the niqaab. There is a wealth of options between a bare midrif and miniskirts and the niqaab. Did you think you might perhaps like to explore those options before you chose the hijab?”
You are confusing yourself btw Hijab and Niqab..
The two are not the same.. Niqab ( covering your face)is a controversial issue
and some scholars believe it was purely a cultural practice taken from the early
Coptic’s living in Egypt.. on the other hand, hijab (exposing your face) is
agreed upon by the Muslim scholars as being ordained from God.
“So if the hijab makes Muslim men appreciate your
intellect, the Muslim world must have dozens, hundreds, even thousands, of women
like RBG holding important positions in society. Does it?”
“What makes you think Islam does that? Explain to
me where is the evidence from the
@ Mohammed re:comment#41
“I have rejected the hip-hugging jeans, the breast-enhancing halter tops, the poofy hair and made-up face, and accepted hijab so that I can be appreciated for my intellect and personality rather than my figure or fashion sense. When I face a classmate or colleague I can be confident that my body is not being scrutinized, my bra-strap or pantyline visible. I have repudiated the perverted values of our society by choosing to assert myself only through my mind.”
“Its not about privacy.. its about demanding RESPECT… You have to agree that if you dress as a prostitute you will be treated as one..”
Are these not your words? I believe they are. You
will persist in claiming that you are defending the Hijab- I have no problem
with defending the Hijab- as I said all the female members of my family wear
Hijab- BUT you are not defending Hijab you are OFFENDING those who do not wear
it by taking the moral high ground as if all those who don’t dress like you are
unworthy of respect and walk around in “hip hugging jeans and breast-enhancing
halter tops” dressed as prostitutes and do not have YOUR COURAGE.
Exactly.the point is the Muslims don’t respect the others.A muslim woman might take non veiled one to be her friend and so but deep inside she knows that she’s wrong not wearing like her.A Muslim man would deal with a non veiled woman but knowing she’s cheap and she doesnt obey god or she’s not Muslim or whatever.Hijab is not about respect it’s about discrimination and we’ve heared it alot(a muslim woman should wear the veil so as to be knowm from those who are not Muslims)does that make any sense??
Then again.. by defending Hijab I’m not attacking
all those who don’t wear it… After all it has been ordained by Allah and that is
enough in its support.. But i won’t even get into that coz some people argue for
the sake of arguing period.
Mohammed Says:”Frist of all hello, secondly the bible have been edited and tampered with since long ago (altho this is not the issue here), you can find a quite large number of bibles, with different versions and editions, and u will find HUGE differences between them. Not to mention that christian scholars forms meetings to change certain verses. And the same exact thing is done in judaism. I don’t see a hatred here, only hatred I see is u telling me to get medical help, which I won’t respond to.”
That is not proof anything has been tampered with. You will find a large number of *translations* which differ. Translations are obviously a real problem - and the same is true of the Quran of course. Doesn’t mean that the Bible has changed at all. Which meetings have Christian scholars ever held to change certain verses? None of that applies to Jews who have a version of the Bible which is still written in Hebrew and remains unchanged from as older as records go back - longer than Islam at any rate. The real problem is that you do not see hatred in your half-truths and smears of two other religions. Don’t you see that your untrue claims are designed to demean, belittle and attack Judaism and Christianity? What other purpose can such lies have and what other motivation apart from hate?
Mohammed Says:”So you say God, has chosen to descend a flawed religion? what logic are you speaking from? why bother send it anyway, and why would he make it flawed? Religion is supposed to help man kind, flawed material only causes corruption.”
Actually I don’t think I said that. I think I defended God’s Omnipotence - He can do whatever He wants because by definition He is All-Powerful. However it is a matter of historical record, if you are a Muslim, that God has chosen to send down any number of flawed religions - Judaism and Christianity for instance. He could have protected those religions as He is supposed to protect Islam, but according to the Quran He did not. So these questions are best directed to your local Imam.
Mohammed Says:”Sorry forgot to add that, what u said about Muslimas, totaly applies also to arabs, Muslims, Chritians, Atheists.”
Sorry but how does anything I have said apply to all Arabs whether Muslims, Christians or Atheists (I assume that is what you are saying?). The Arabs had powerful women before Islam - Queen Zenobia for instance. Since Islam no woman has had a career like Khadija for instance. Islam has driven all Arab women - Muslim, Christian or Atheist - out of the public arena and into their homes. Some Christian and Atheist Arab women have reclaimed a public role - Hanan Ashawri for instance, or Leila Khaled, but only once people rejected Islam.
Mohammed Says:”Please how can putting something over your hair, become something that causes all that you claim?”
Because it is not just putting something on your hair. It is a sign that bad things are your fault for tempting men (which revolutionises the public sphere) and if it is worn properly, it is not just a piece of cloth. It means not talking in public - see that an Iranian boy was stabbed for speaking to his girlfriend on his mobile phone in public yesterday? - not attracting attention to yourself, not making a noise, basically being invisible.
Mohammed Says:”So now Nuns for example are not able to be productive or do something or be succesful?”
Well no. That would go with them taking vows of poverty, obedience, and so on. In the good old days nuns would be locked up and no man would ever see them. They were not allowed any public role whatsoever - and notice the important difference here - those women *chose* to be nuns by giving their lives to the service of God.
Mohammed Says:”Or the hats Jews wear? Head cover and outer appearances has nothing to do with achievments.”
Jewish Orthodox women are obviously in the same position Muslimas are, just not as bad. Hard to name any important Orthodox Jewish women either. By itself a head cover would mean nothing - but it does not occur in a vacuum. It occurs in a culture that demeans and represses women. You explain why so few Muslimas have had any prominence whatsoever while so many pre-Islamic women from the same cultures did.
Noosh Says:”With all due respect.. you have presented before me a large number of misconceptions that I find it hard to address them all.. maybe you can leave your email and I will try to respond to them when I have more time.. But I find the Hijab you are referring to a very strange hijab.. It is not the hijab I or most muslim women follow.”
I am sorry but on the whole I don’t think it is a good idea to give out my e-mail. But I am willing to spend all day going over my “misconceptions”.
It is, with all due respect, the hijab most Muslimas follow. What middle class Canadian Muslimas do or do not do is hardly representative of Muslimas as a whole is it?
Noosh Says:”You are confusing yourself btw Hijab and Niqab.. The two are not the same.. Niqab ( covering your face)is a controversial issue and some scholars believe it was purely a cultural practice taken from the early Coptic’s living in Egypt.. on the other hand, hijab (exposing your face) is agreed upon by the Muslim scholars as being ordained from God.”
No I am not. You seem to have said you wear the niqaab because you claim no one knows what you look like. I strongly doubt Copts ever wore the niqaab. I do not deny there are aHadith that say to cover all but your hands and face, but as Maududi says, obviously the niqaab is required because the aim is to prevent men lusting, and there is no point shutting the windows and leaving the door wide open.
Noosh Says:”Your description of hijab-wearing women as being “a faceless black tent” confirms your lack of exposure to Muslim women.”
It seems to be the form of covering you prefer - and of course by your logic, it is inevitable. After all, what is the point of letting your face be exposed if you want people to treat you other than as a sex object? However if you make it clear what sort of cover you wear I’ll stick to that - while pointing out that for most Muslim women it is in fact the demands of their men and culture that shape what they wear and the trend is for the burka, not just the hijab.
Noosh Says:”Reaching an important position in society involves a large number of things one of which is HAVING an intellect in the first place. Wearing the Hijab will not give you an intellect. Its not a magical piece of cloth that will transform you into a super being once you put it on.. I find it difficult to understand why are you confusing one thing and another..”
Well we will all accept, I assume, that Muslimas are not born stupid - or at least not any more stupid than anyone else. Presumably women as smart as RBG are being born all the time. I agree that wearing the hijab will not make you smart - but it will put a whole series of obstacles in the way of you getting an education and having a life outside being bare foot and pregnant in the kitchen. The Muslim world has the worst rates of literacy for their income in the world. Worse than non-Muslim Africa by and large. Most of that is due to illiterate women. You think there is no connection here?
Noosh Says:”But let me ask you this.. HOW on earth is it that wearing the Hijab is oppressive.. ? why is covering yourself an impediment to a female’s career..or a career killer as you described it.. Why is it that women have to use their looks to achieve anything?!”
In itself, it is not. But in a larger context, it is. In the context of women being blamed for rape, it is obviously oppressive. In the sense that it says that the solution to men’s misbehaviour is restricting women’s choices, it’s oppressive. You only have to look at the attitude - if women are so tempting that they have to be covered, then obviously they are so tempting they have to be kept out of the workplace where men might be found.
Noosh Says:”There are countless examples of veiled Muslim women having important positions in society.. One good example is that at the time of Omar Ibn El Khattab, the second khalifa, the minister of trade was a woman!”
Well they did not have Ministers of Trade back then and may I ask what the name of this paragon - who grew up under paganism obviously - was?
Notice that no woman has been able to have to a career like Khadija since Muhammed died. Concidence you think?
Noosh Says:”Before I can respond to that lets separate islam from the current day muslims. If you are truly interested in knowing what islam is about then look at the original text on which this religion is based. Look at the Prophet (PBUH) and his companions as they are the true representative of Islam.”
I will go half-way with the separation of Islam and Muslim cultures. However those cultures are shaped by Islam and Islam is shaped by those cultures. You cannot really separate them. By all means, let’s look at the texts. What makes you think you will find any support there?
Noosh Says:”I don’t understand why Hijab means staying at home as I am wearing it and I’m a full time researcher and medical doctor and so is my mom. My sisters are veiled and they too have very successful careers. We are no exception.. all my veiled friends have a college degree and we are all very active in our community…!!”
You are in Canada. Lucky for you. How many full time female medical researchers are there in Pakistan or Egypt or Saudi Arabia? You can pick and choose what parts of Islam - and Muslim culture - you observe because you’re in Kaffirdom. Egyptian women obviously have fewer choices. However if Islam was properly enforced you could not “attract” men by making noises as you walked. Or by talking to men - women’s voices are awrah remember. How would you maintain your research career then?
noosh Says:”Then again.. by defending Hijab I’m not attacking all those who don’t wear it…”
By boiling all the choices in the world to 1. Hijab and 2. Dressing like a prostitute, I think you are. Why do you think you are not?
noosh Says:”Pharoan.. the seven versions of the Quaran are seven narrations of the Quran.. all of which have been approved by the prophet PBUH..”
How could Muhammed have done that when the Quran was not collected in his lifetime?
noosh Says:”The point here is.. the sahabas found no need to write it down.. they learned it by heart.. as the Quran is primarly an oral book.. Not to mention the differences are rather suttle.. and they do not alter the meaning..”
I rather doubt that they learned it by heart. It is one of the oddities of early Muslim history that Islam and Muhammed seem to have been ignored for the first 70 odd years. There are no mentions of Muhammed before then on tomb stones for instance. Nothing specifically Islamic at all in fact. His actual grave was ignored. His family was as well - no one wanted to marry Fatima for instance even when he was alive. But in any event we know from the aHadith that part of the Quran was remembered by only one man. One. So clearly very few people remembered it all by heart.
Mohammed @ 28
The point is Mohammed that YOU should not be judging at all. That is for Allah alone to judge me. Do you presume to do better than Allah? I don’t think so. The problem with Muslims is that they judge. Our religion does not entitle you to judge anybody, anytime, at all. This is for Allah and Allah alone.
Tell me, if the Hijab is such an unquestionable part of Islam, why is there so much controversy? Why do so many question and debate the Hadiths in relation to the Hijab in its various forms? Why does the Hanbali school of thought claim that niqab is also mandated while the other three schools of third generally do not? Why has this thread attracted such a discussion about how the Quran should be interpreted in this regard? We do not debate Haj, Sawm, Salat, Shahada or Zakat- yet we debate Hijab. This tells me that the Hijab is in fact not mandated at all- if it were unquestionably so as it is with so many other facets of Islam there would be no debate.
My hijab is in my heart. And that’s where it is staying.
God created this universe from scratch, stars, planet, every single rocks on each planet you may find, suns, he created dinosaurs, mamals, a process taking billions of years…Every single beings, from the tiniest insect to human had to fight for surviving and to reproduce. It took thousand of years for men to make cities, to invent agriculture, to make laws forbidding various crimes … to invent science, to study all species include themselves, to understand their environment, understanding reasons, wisdoms, sharing experiences, inventing letters, languages.
Human kind is now exploring the space, we are studying genetic, artificial intelligence, so many challenges ahead…Such a formidable journey, an astonishing work done generation after genration.
Your body is made of billions of cells. Any brain, any mind is more complex than the biggest computer man has ever made. Any cell has been carefully designed through the whole evolution since the first sign of life appeared on earth. Our Body has changed over the millenium, we became biped, in the last generations there were small changes such tinier teeth, bigger brain, height increasing, and less hair. Yes less hair…
You could think that such a thing is anecdotic in front of the big picture, in front of the never ending journey, No…
A bunch of genius in the middle east have found an extremely important law. It is called the third law of the Universe :
Female human beings must wear coton fibers on their head. coton fibers should form a veil. its opacity should forbid any optical recognition by male human beings. It should reflect any waves in the visible spectrum….On the opposite male human beings must keep their hair on their face intact. This law is universally known as the third law of the Universe. The hair’s law.
If you don’t, you commit a sin. Such a sin will provoke an ever ending chain of action-reaction that can be scientifically easily explained but I won’t go into details (for more detail search for the Hairy theory)
The Hair’s law is by far the most important discovery of the mankind. A nobel prize will be soon awarded. A new discipline “hairy science” will be soon teatched in the university.
With any luck at all, islamic women will continue to be deried and controlled to the point where those social genres simply fade from lack of reproduction. I say ban them all! They’re evil!!! No islamic man must look, touch or even think of a woman!
Don’t generalize by saying “Muslims do and do not”, we respect all human beings (unless murderes or such), Hijab is not something that gains you respect, hijab is something you do for God. Non veiled muslims didn’t do that, okay, thats thier choice. Non muslims don’t have an order of hijab in the frist place, why would we disrespect them. The only descrimination is people judging by the looks and cloth, just like some idiots before judged by skin color. And stop posting one of those “Leave your islam, become a christian” sites, because we are having a real discussion here. And you talking about reason, same as other orders main reason is obeying God, such as why we pray and fast and and and. Those orders are for our better (which is something we 100% have faith in), we might be able to find values (benifits and such).
I commented above on those “values and reasons” you were talking about, but one more thing I need you to understand, if you have faith in God, you will have faith they he will never order you to do something unless it helps you be better. Those reason depend on your own comprehension, for example did u think many years ago people knew the biological benefits from fasting? but we know them now.
We don’t have 6 different versions!, 6 different read manners, since we have something called “Tashkeel” in which a single letter can have different ways of pronounciation. The words are all the same, every thing is exactly the same, some1 can read ONE verse in the 6 different reading styles, we only have ONE QURAN.
It was collceted mainly from memory, those written texts were secondary, in arabic times memorizing was something they ALL DO, quran was collected from those who memorized it from A-Z (they were alot), and when they all read it, it was the exact same. You can search and read to find how quran was trully collected.
Those translations are not Quran, they are more like something to help you understand. The Quran is the arabic Quran. Ask any muslim in any part of the world when he prays he says quran in arabic or his language? the answer would be in arabic. Those translation are only made to make people ( who didn’t yet learn arabic) understand what they are saying.
God never descended something flawed, all that came from God are perfect religions, God having absolute power has nothing to do with you justifying lost/edited/forgotten religions. Frist of all there aren’t just 3 religions, God sent prophets and religions from Abaraham (PBUH). Now, why would God descend another religion when there’s one? why aren’t we all following Abraham’s religion? (I mean the exact one at that time), why are there christianity and judaism and islam? does God want to divide the people? The answer to that is that God doesn’t descend a religion unless the prior is forgotten or lost in a way or another. As islam was the final message, god stated clearly that he descended that religion, and that he will protect it. (in the Quran).
Now about women, what I meant is that if u claim islam (actually u said hijab) prevents women from being succesful, what have those who follow another religion or don’t wear the hijab did anything? U told me what was before islam, well at times of islam there were many leading women as well u can check “Seera” and islamic history for that. But you and I are talking about current times, if islam is what trully prevents women from being successful, then why are those not belonging to it doing anything extra? if hijab is the limit to all women capabilities, we non hijab wearers are doing nothing extra. Islam didn’t make women sit at home. Blame that one how people think and thier concepts, Many many christians also make thier women sit at home (no work), and some of them are my friends, religion has nothing to do with that, thats a stupid concept in the arabic world. In egypt every1 has the right to education and work, there are no hold backs. And many hijab wearers reached many respectful positions, wether in colleges, hospitals, writers, ..etc (not on an international extent tho, but same applies to all arabic women).
What I want you to do, is seperate the current state of weakness and un-intellegence in the arabic world from islam. Because if islam was the reason, then a huge gap would’ve appeared between muslims and non muslims (interms of success, power, knowledge, degrees, awards, …) Infact the only noble prize for science given to an egyptian belongs to a muslim. I belive the other three do as well (I do not support Anwar tho). Islam doesn’t women to not talk, it says “Wala ta7`da3n bel kawl”, which loosely means don’t try and talk in a seductive ways (elly howa el dala3), but they can talk very normally, and they do, have you ever visited egypt? ever one talks man. And about the noise, lol? do u notice women by they noise? or does noise achive success.
I don’t see a difference between hair cover wore by muslim or by any other women in the name of religion, but u do thats biased. Nuns “chose” so do muslimas. Some are forced yes, but thats wrong, again islam is about choice, here we are talking about those who chose to obey that order.
Actually I meant Male jews wearing the hats, I didn’t know till now that also some jewish women cover thier hair as well. Look man every1 is free to belief in what he wants, if some people wear crosses, some hats, some cover thier hair, thats thier belief, it has NOTHING TO DO WITH ACHIVEMENTS, hijab doesn’t shoot misseles I repeat, hijab doesn’t install a mod chip in women’s grey matter that makes them in a dormant state.
Again alot of muslimas had a role at time of islam, and it depends on the people not the religion, for example during the islamic era, arabs made alooooot of scientific discoveries, no they are making non,islam was there back then, and is still now. Its up to people, thier own intillegence and capabilities. (man thats along discussion, plz HeiGou I don’t hate any religion, and some of my very best friends are christians, and I don’t differentiate between muslims, christians, jews (well ugh, unless zionists), hindus, buddhists , atheists or w/e. And Islam doesn’t tell me to treat them differently or anything. Hateness and racism comes from people, not religions. Communists and Zionists didn’t have a religion.
@The Usual Suspect :
Well I didn’t mean judge, as in the way you understood it. We all have our opinions about people we meet and see, I just liked to point out that Hijab only makes other people know that she followed an order. Just like when we see some1 pray (we know he prays, or is close to God). That is all, that doesn’t mean we think those who don’t wear it are hookers or any lesser or w/e (as u stated b4, and I said b4 also that my sister doesn’t wear it, but she belives its an order).
Nothing is “unquestionable” in islam, scholars study every single part and bit, and if you read anything about accepting different scholar opinions in islam, you will know that islam prefectly welcome that, to a really large degree. Alot of things have controversy, however the controversy about Hijab is either cover the face or not, and as I said b4, “Belegma3″ scholars agreed about not. The recent controversery is the one about cover your hair or not, which few scholars actually say it. And you are free to follow what you think is the truth “Fas2alo ahl el 3elm in kontom la ta3lamoon” (which means ask people who study the religions -scholars- if you didn’t know), if you indeed listened to scholars with both opinions, and you are convinced with those saying its not an order, then okay, but don’t insult those who were convinced in the opinions of scholars and mazaheb and tafseer of those who interpreted as an order. U should never insult a person’s choice in what to belive in. which is what alot of people here are doing, so did “Farook Housni” what a person believes in, is his own business and freedom (thats one of the very basics of human rights).
An example of controversy on prayer, some says men should wear something on thier head (Geta` Al Ra`s) like Al Albany, and others, some don’t. Because islam welcomes different opinions (Fe Ekhtelafahom Ra7ma -loosely meaning, scholars having different opinion is a good sign), there are many different opinions on many issues. Altho yes I am with you the current controversy on Hijab is quite big.
Well people its been nice writing 99999 lines, and reading 989764 lines (LOL), but I trully had enough, I have said my opinion towards Farouk, and other people who oppose hijab (and those who oppose islam), the discussion is only getting bigger as it seems, and I’ve tried many times to say my point and concepts, and I think thats enough. Again what a peson believes in is something belonging to him, we should never judge that. All people who believe in God, should be close to each other in understanding (which is not the case AT ALL, i don’t know why), we should focus on our similarities, not our differences. Also with atheist (infact atheists and religious people get along more than two people from different religion, quite funny actually). We should put differences aside, and put the hating and descrimination aside, and stop blaming other people’s religion for everything. We should be working together for the best of earth and humanity (that is the main goal of all religions. And the main goal of all people who turlly think). Thanks to you every1 for your time and comment, goodbye.
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